Bobby Martinez: «When Paco told me that in flamenco “You can’t read music…”

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Born in Philadelphia, his roots are in Cuba, but he moved to Spain in 1998. After having accompanied some of the most famous contemporary artists, luck had reserved an unexpected gift for him here: to accompany Paco de Lucía. Of course, depending on how you look at it, it could be a poisoned gift, since until then his contact with the flamenco had been little more than tangential. Bobby Martinez remembers everything for Expoflamenco In this interview.

–When did your meeting with Paco de Lucía take place?

–It was when Paco’s boys went with Chick Corea. Paco had to put together a new group with Alain Pérez on bass, Negri on second guitar and singing, Piraña on percussion and two gypsy singers, La Tana and her mother. It seems that the manager had brought him a flute player from India who played a lot of clay flutes and such, but the guy didn’t improvise. So of course, the tour was three months in the United States, and Paco understood that he couldn’t do that with a flute player who didn’t improvise, so he told the manager: “Send this guy back and we’ll look for someone else.” He asked Alain, with whom I had already worked many times. “Man, don’t you know anyone who could do this job?” “Look, I have a friend called Bobby Martínez who plays really well, he improvises a lot, the only thing is that he’s a jazz musician, I don’t know what experience he has with jazz.” flamenco"Tell him to come and we'll play something so I can listen to him."

–And they called him.

–They called me and I went to Limón’s studios, and there was Paco with the boys. They started playing a rumba that I consider normal, in four, and there was no problem. And Paco said: “The job is yours, you’re coming with us next week.” Next week! He says to the girl at the studio, Limón’s sister: “Prepare Bobby a CD with the songs he has to learn, and that’s it, we’ll see you in Canada.” There we went, I spoke to Paco and he told me that the next day we had a rehearsal before the concert in the building of the Union of Musicians. I thought, “great,” I stood there, and I saw that the music stands were placed in a circle. I played the tenor, the soprano, the flute… Paco de Lucía played right in front of me, I set up my music stand, I put on all the music, because I spent the whole week transcribing everything I had to play, including the bulerías, which I didn’t even understand how the beat was, “what is this, a 12/8, a 6/8, and suddenly they stop and start again? This is really difficult, because if I don’t get the meter here…”

–How did you solve it?

–Luckily Alain, a few days before, came to my house and taught me the bulería, its twelve beats, on the second they stop, 1-2-3, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2…” Well, we hadn’t even started rehearsing and Paco sits in front of me and is looking at me… But looking, eh? I get a little annoyed and say to him, “What’s wrong, Paco?” “Bobby, what’s that you have there?” And I proudly said to him: “Look, I’ve done all the homework with all the songs.” “Well, I’m sorry, Bobby, but in fact I’m not sure what to do, but I’m not sure what to do.” flamenco “I can’t read music.” Just imagine, that was a real blow to me, I almost fell off my chair! I turned white, pale, got up, went to the bathroom and thought: now this man has really made me feel bad. Alain followed me and reassured me, “You’ll learn it in the next few days, don’t worry, don’t go crazy.”

–It was no wonder.

–We played the concert that night, and after that day, the first ten days of the tour I hardly slept, I spent every night in the hotel trying to learn the songs by heart and especially the lines that I had to dub with Paco de Lucía, I don’t know what that man had in his fingers, but he played with a kind of speed that was impressive. And I remember that the bastard looked at me when those lines came, in the middle of the concert, half smiling, as if to say “let’s see if you screw up or not.” No, no, he hit me hard, he hit me hard as hell… I ended up with just a few cheat sheets, which I stuck on the monitor. I sat right next to him, and so that he wouldn’t see the cheat sheets, I turned the monitor towards me [laughs]. After ten days I basically knew the repertoire.

«Paco was Paco. He was a gentleman. When you were around him you could tell that you were next to a person with a tremendous level. You could feel that, it was him. It was incredible. You knew you were next to the best guitarist in the world, and that is a very strong feeling»

– Matter settled?

–Then there was the other point, which he told me: “Bobby, you play amazing, your solos are awesome, but damn, my melodies… They don't sound very good.” flamenco"That made me really angry, because he was right. I would have needed at least a year of playing. flamenco to get the hang of quarter tones and all those things that Jorge Pardo did and does, and many other musicians of the flamenco, but in my world that is not done. And I recognized it. I felt that I was not fulfilling the complete job. But for me it was an incredible challenge. Who would have told me that I would end up playing with the best guitarist in the world.

–You were already used to playing with great musicians. What impressed you about Paco?

–I still remember that he carried a little bottle of Vaseline, he would put his finger in it and stick a piece of Vaseline on the guitar, and in the middle of the concert, he would constantly wet the tips of his fingers with Vaseline. “Of course,” I thought, “he puts it on so that the tips of his fingers would slide a little, otherwise he would get blisters there… Because he played so fast, those two fingers were a dizzying thing, they didn’t look so fast.” And what I know is that I had never heard an acoustic guitar sound like Paco made it sound. It had a kind of volume, and a roundness and something that… It’s hard to put into words if you don’t hear it, it was incredible.

–How did the public react?

–In the United States I had a great time, in all the states we were in there was always some friend there that I called, they came to the concerts… All the concerts were sold out, completely, the treatment was incredible, those Americans had us, wow, between the buffets and the limousine trips from the hotel to the theater… An impressive professionalism. But at the end of the tour, I myself said to Paco: “Please, for me it has been something impressive, incredible, an experience that I will never forget… But you need to bring in another person doing the work that I am doing, someone who understands more about flamenco, because it will take me a long time to get that point." During the tour I had been getting a little bit, but imagine doing it like Jorge Pardo, who I believe was the creator of that way of playing the saxophone and the flute.

–Very honest of you: another person might have grabbed it anyway.

–No, I knew it, man, and I am a perfectionist, I always have been. Deep down, it bothered me not to be up to par. He had no problem with improvisations, he loved my solos, “how you work the scales,” he would tell me. That is another thing that took me several days to get used to: Paco did not speak to me in musical terms. To explain something to me, he would take the guitar and say, “look, Bobby, this note,” ding, ding, ding, ding!, “not this one, do this one,” so, so, so! In my mind I asked myself, “damn, why can’t this man tell me not to play a yes, to play an A.” Later I found out that he didn’t know, or he didn’t like to talk like that. He would say to me: “A chord flamenco of the third fret”, and I was thinking, “what the fuck is a chord flamenco third fret, my goodness?” Then, playing, I found out what he was telling me, for us it was a dominant flat 9 chord. And he called it “flamenco”. And there you can play the diminished, even the Phrygian, which has that Arabic sound… Since I knew a bit of theory, I would sneak in, and in the solos I did well, and I did my little quarter-tone things here and there. But there were melodies that I couldn’t do. That’s a culture, damn it, it’s not something you learn overnight.

–It's that you entered the flamenco by helicopter, upstairs…

–Look, it wasn't about going away for three months with Los del Río or with someone from flamenco pop, but with the best of it in Spain, with the cream of the crop. I learned many things that have been useful for my music, for jazz. It was wonderful.

–You were born in the United States. What was your first big project, the Miami Sound Machine?

–Yes, in pop music it was the Miami Sound Machine. I started with them when I was about 16 years old. I was with them for a few years until I formed my own band, because I was always into jazz, you know? But my time in the group was before they had their first hit with Columbia Records. I had recorded the previous album, the one that got them signed, but when they signed with Columbia I had already left. From there I started doing a lot of jazz work. I played with Joe Williams, Richie Cole, Ira Sullivan… I also played in a group that was Jaco’s [Pastorious] favorite there in Miami. Every time he knew we were going to be there or in Fort Lauderdale, where he lived, he would come to our concerts and get on with us sometimes. It was the time when he was getting sick, but hey, he was able to enjoy Jaco for a couple of years.

«Bobby, what's that you have there?» And I proudly said to him: «Look, I've done all the homework with all the topics. Well, I'm sorry, Bobby, but in flamenco I can't read music. Imagine, that was a real blow to me, I almost fell off my chair! I turned white, pale, got up, went to the bathroom and thought: now this man has really made me feel bad.

–You were also with Celia Cruz, with Willy Chirino… and Spanish artists?

–The last thing I did before coming here to Spain was that I was often called to the studio to do a solo, but in Miami it was always pop, pop and salsa, but very little jazz. We had an organization that did free jazz concerts in parks and such, but as I said, I mostly did solos for pop albums. I recorded with a group of girls who became very famous, Exposé, I also recorded with a very famous soul singer, Betty Wright… And Spanish people with Raphael, Julio Iglesias, with Camilo Sesto I did several tours in South America.

–But the flamenco At that time it wasn't on your horizon, was it?

–At that time, none. The only connection I had then was that the Gipsy Kings were very popular in the United States. When I was young I had two albums by Paco de Lucía, the ones he made with Al Di Meola and John McLaughin, and that was the closest thing to the flamenco that I was there. But to touch flamenco never, until the day I started playing with Paco. One time he got mad at me because he asked me, “well, tell me what flamenco You like it.” And I told him, “Paco, I’ve only listened to you and the Gipsy Kings.” And I said to myself: “I screwed up” [laughs].

–But he was already an international celebrity, wasn’t he?

–Boy, I was over the top. There was an incredible fan base in the United States, Americans would show up at our concerts with guitars and dressed in black. flamenco and everything. They started playing! I remember that in Berkeley, California, they had a party for Paco and the band. Paco didn’t go, he stayed at the hotel, but we did go and everyone played really well… The gypsies said “Damn, man, these Yankees, look how they play just like us.”

–I suppose Paco also had a special magnetism…

–Yes, Paco was Paco. He was a gentleman, when you were around him you could tell you were next to a person with a tremendous level. You could feel that, it was him. It was incredible. You knew you were next to the best guitarist in the world, and that is a very powerful feeling.

–Tell me an anecdote about that tour.

–Look, of the ones that can be counted, as I was saying before, he told me that he loved the way I improvised, but he needed the melodies to sound a little more flamenco. And he got it by introducing me, when we were playing live and he started mentioning each one, “Alain Pérez on bass, El Negri on guitar…” When he got to me, “and Bobby Martínez from Jerez!” I was looking at him thinking, “you’re making fun of me, you bastard.” But I knew he was saying it to screw me over, and the guys in the band were crying with laughter. He loved to tease people.

«At the end of the tour I myself told Paco: please, for me it has been something impressive, incredible, an experience that I will never forget... But you need to bring in another person who understands more about flamenco…During the tour I had been picking up a little bit, but imagine doing it like Jorge Pardo, who I believe was the creator of that way of playing the saxophone and the flute.

–Was it easy to travel with him?

–Very well. We would go to the buffets to have dinner after the concert, and many times he would come over to me to see what I had taken, and he would take food from my plate. I would look at him and say: “Fuck, I have to put up with this because you are Paco.” But very well, he was a great guy, he would sit down and tell us stories. Some heavy metal bands, I would like to tell them, but it is not in my place…

–And did you get along well with the group?

–Okay, beyond the little cultural things that sometimes, you know, I come from one culture, others from another, and there are little things that clash on both sides. But normal things. The one I remember that I got along really well with was Tana and her mother, in the United States they would go shopping and tell me, “Oh, Bobby, if you would come with us to serve as an interpreter…” And I would say, well, okay, today I have time, I’ll go with you. They were very nice.

–Paco did speak English well, right?

–Yes, he had quite a vocabulary, he could speak very well. With his accent and his thing, but he made himself understood perfectly.

–You have also worked with Jorge Pardo. How is your understanding with him?

–Yes, I love Jorge very much. When I finished the tour, the first thing I did was call him and say, “Wow, bro, what I’ve been hit with with this Paco de Lucía tour has been tremendous, man. He asked me to do the things you do, and I couldn’t do it.” He was crying with laughter, “Damn, Bobby, with the way you play.” “Yeah, yeah, whatever you want, but I don’t know how to do those things, you’ve been doing that all your life, I don’t give a damn.” For me, Jorge is the creator of that way of playing, and no one is going to do it better than him, although there are some people out there who play wonderfully.

–And Antonio Serrano?

–He was the one who took my place, and it was a good acquisition, because he is a tremendous musician, and he is good at it. flamencoThe harmonica gives it a fresh touch.

«I still remember that he carried a little bottle of Vaseline, he would put his finger in it and stick a piece of it on the guitar, and in the middle of the concert, he would constantly wet the tips of his fingers with Vaseline. Of course, I thought, he puts it on so that the tips of his fingers would slide a little, otherwise he would get blisters there… Because he played with such speed, those two fingers were a dizzying thing, they didn't look so fast.»

–Did your career continue on the right path?

–Yes, I found an interest in jazz in Spain, and also in Europe. Until recently, I used to go to Russia, Germany, and so on every year… In October, I'm going to Israel if things get better with the mess they have there. And from time to time, I go back to the United States.

–You may know that Paco settled in Cuba in his last years, and there was even talk of collaborating with Cuban musicians. Did you suspect this affinity?

–No, I think that was what happened with Alain Pérez. When I met him, he was with his wife in a beautiful house he had in Mexico, he spent his time diving, he always said: “How I like to dive!” I know that he liked Cuban music, he got on very well with Alain, he loved it. Alain has that swing, that vibe. Paco really liked Cuban music and Cuban musicians.

–Did you talk about music anymore?

–I also remember that Paco, when we met in his hotel room because he wanted to talk to us, or we wanted to ask each other questions, always talked about CamarónAnd when he did, his eyes would water. It seems that he had a unique affection for her.

–How did you receive the news of his death?

–Man, the truth is that it took me by surprise, because he was super good, super strong. In my opinion he still had a good twenty or twenty-five more years of playing guitar. But it was a terrible surprise, nobody expected it. I went to his funeral and the prince happened to be next to me, now he is the king. And when I entered the wake I met Pedro Iturralde, we entered together. Coincidentally, I understand that he was one of the first to do it. flamenco jazz.

–Would you embark on a project again? flamenco?

–I've been thinking about doing things with colors flamencoYes, of course. In fact, I have a recording in September with my band and there are a couple of things that have their point. flamenco. Make a project flamenco I don't feel capable, but I can play, of course.