Juan Ramírez: «When Paco died, the oil ran out, now there are only puddles»

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“I have been inside the hurricane,” he says. Juan Ramirez, dancer born in Mérida and settled in Alicante, reviewing his impressive resume: Paco de Lucía, CamarónEnrique Morente… “And without any kind of influence, I have earned it through my merits, by kicking and stomping,” he emphasizes.

It was back in 1985 when he joined the group of the genius from Algeciras, being the first to bring dance to his shows. In this interview he recalls Expoflamenco the circumstances in which that meeting took place, but also the disagreements that led him to take his own path.

–How was your first contact with dance?

–It was through a couple of my uncles who danced. In Seville it is everywhere, and among the family and the people around me, one started with the flamencoMy parents – he from Badajoz and she from Córdoba – later came here to AlicanteI was about 12 years old, or thereabouts. The first thing I did was sing, but it changed my voice. I had never thought about dancing before, I wanted to be a guitarist, but two older guitarists saw me give it a go and said: “You play really well and you're a good age to start, but you look really good dancing too. If we were you, we'd stick to dancing, where there are fewer people.” They made me think and I listened to them.

–Who are the first figures you rub shoulders with?

–In Seville with Matilde Coral, Pepa Montes, La Pelona… Then I started dancing with La Chana, a girl from Barcelona. In Seville I met Farruco too, and well, little by little you get into it. flamenco...

–How did the meeting with Paco happen?

–It was in Madrid, where you had to go to succeed. I went when I was 17 or 18 years old. At that time Paco only went with Ramón, his brother; the bass player, the Catalan; and the flute. It wasn't a sextet yet. He came to see me one day at a tablao called Las Brujas, which no longer exists. I was recording. I just want to walk, he saw me dancing and told me that he would like me to put my feet in a bulería from the album. I confessed to him that I didn't know if I was ready, I had a lot of respect for him. flamenco and Paco, who has been the Beethoven of flamenco Here in Spain. And he told me: “Don’t worry, I haven’t seen anyone dance like you.” He gave me some very nice compliments. And well, I’ve always been there, climbing stairs, working, going through hardships… flamenco It's very hard, but if you like it and you're young, you get into the tunnel. But it's very hard.

–Paco, was he already the recognized figure that we know?

–Yes, I was already recognized worldwide. In the end I didn't record on that album, I went back to Alicante. At that time I didn't think things through. But at the age of ten I came to the Ali BullringcanteI went to see him and said: “I’m sorry I left and didn’t tell you anything.” “Don’t worry, another time,” he told me. Later I went to another tablao that doesn’t exist either, Los Canasteros, and I found him there. There was a man with him at a table, the promoter of the tour that I would end up doing with him. The director of Los Canasteros, Diego Carrasco, was waiting for me and he said: “I have a surprise for you.” I thought it would be a gig, a gala or something like that, but I went inside and there was Paco and more people, they invited me to dance… Over the years I have realized that everything was prepared. You have to earn things by going in to kill the first blow. And I went on tour with him, because he was missing the dance, and I was the first. That was in 85.

"The flamenco It is in Spain, lying in the back streets. It is a very marginalised music, it is not appreciated as it should be. I am a gypsy, and I think that also weighs a bit in some places. When people get a bit silly, I tell them: I did not choose to be a gypsy, God made me a gypsy, I make a living dancing, I have never stolen anything from anyone. And there are gypsies who are businessmen, who have theatres… We are normal people.

–Was it difficult for you to fit in with the group in any way?

–When you know what you're doing and everyone else knows what they're doing, it's easy. The level of each one was great: in three or four days we were fine-tuned, you've seen them, they've seen you, and everything works because there's quality.

–Who did you get along best with?

–The one I got along with the best was the guy in charge of the drawer, Rubem Dantas. And the others were fine, but they were on a different wavelength. I was the youngest and the only one who hung out with me was Rubem, he was like my older brother. He gave me a little help, I didn’t know how to speak English and he helped me when I wanted to have a coffee or something… He was the closest, they put us in the room together, on planes.

–And Ramón, what was he like?

–I got along well with him. He was a quiet, serious man, older than everyone else.

–What was the tour like?

–There were seventy concerts throughout Europe, the biggest tour I have ever done. I like going to France, which is close, to Germany, but going to Japan, to America… I don’t like that very much anymore.

–Was there a lot of partying after the concerts?

–From time to time, when we finished dinner, in some Spanish restaurants that invited us. Paco played a little and there was a bit of a party between us. I have done it very little in my life, staying up until eight or nine in the morning drinking. I realized that the flamenco, apart from being an art, is a job. Being a scoundrel and living life to the fullest has nothing to do with music. Degenerating as a human being, taking drugs, that's what you have to call a bad life, it has nothing to do with the commitment that one can have with one's work. And then the next day there is no time to rehearse, study or invent anything new. One day you can stay up until eight, but in the end you can't do anything. flamenco There are people who spend their whole lives like this.

«Paco had it all: that magic wand that comes already in the person, he was out of the ordinary. Creator, the best. As an interpreter. The rhythm. He sang, played and danced with the guitar at the same time. It is a gift from birth. Paco was not a guitarist, he was a musician. A genius of nature. The two geniuses that nature has given are called Paco and Camarón, those who have enriched the cante and the guitar»

–And how was Paco’s music received wherever they went?

–It was a blast, the walls didn’t fall down by a miracle, but it was a shower of applause like I had never seen in my life, everywhere. Applause that lasted two or three minutes long. And Rubem told me that since there was dancing, there was more applause, people really liked it. It was crazy. But one thing is to talk about it and another to have been there…

–What went wrong, then?

–Paco paid very little. When I lost the desire to be with someone so important, I left. One also struggles to make a living from this, to make a living. As I told you, it was 70 days throughout Europe doing concerts, and I arrived in Spain with what would be about 900 euros. Very little. I'll tell you one thing: this doesn't mean that I'm better than Paco, everyone does their own thing, but I'm an artist who believes in what he does. It was an honour, of course, the most beautiful experience I've had. But if I'm with Paco and I don't bring in the support for my family, yes, you enjoy it, but you have to go to the backwoods if necessary to get it. But you can't come back with less money than you earn here in Spain. People idolise some people, and if you don't tell them what they want to hear... You know, you're the bad guy, but it's not about the bad guys or the good guys, it's about earning a living.

–Were you disappointed with that part of working with Paco?

–At that time I thought that a guy who played the guitar so well had to have a great heart. But later I realized that the gift one has from birth has nothing to do with the goodness of the heart. They are different things. You learn, one thing is what you think and another is what you live, what you find along the way. With Paco, artistically very well, of course, for me it was a way of enriching myself from that point of view, and of helping me believe in what I did, because if he doesn't like you, he won't call you. Later he called Manolito Soler, Grilo, Farru... Other people.

Juan Ramírez, dancing at Casa Patas. Photo: video capture

–In personal dealings, how was he up close?

–As a companion, a simple, normal man. He was great because he was born for that, he had all the ingredients to be what he was. As Camarón, it was also very simple. They didn't have to be stiff to be who they were.

–Was your farewell to him sour or cordial?

–He spoke to the musicians and they told me “Paco is very happy with you, he doesn’t want you to leave.” I think he was a little sad, everyone told me that they enjoyed being with me. But what can I say? There was no anger. Paco didn’t need anyone either, I don’t know if I can explain myself.

"I've done very little of it in my life, staying up until eight or nine in the morning drinking. I realized that the flamenco, apart from being an art, is a job. Being a scoundrel and living life to the fullest has nothing to do with music. Degenerating as a human being, taking drugs, that should be called a bad life, it has nothing to do with the commitment that one can have with one's work.

–What is your opinion of the dancers who came after you?

–El Grilo is more my style, I saw him in Madrid a long time ago. And El Farru too. Manolito Soler was a bit older than me and already had his own style. When I was little I took a lot of things from tap dancing films and I put them into the dance I do now, because my father couldn’t pay me anything. I’ve always had Carmen Amaya, Farruco the elder, the great masters who came before you as a reference… What happens is that all these people who came later have taken my way of tap dancing, giving speed and richness to what the heel is. In Madrid everyone knows it, but if they don’t want to give you water, you have to look for it yourself…

–Before that, you did record on another album, Sirocco. How was the experience?

–Yes, I did a little bit of alegrías and bulerías. Paco gave me a small square piece of wood, the song had already been recorded and he said to me: “Dance here, on the song.” He was in charge of mixing it. Paco liked me to be on his record. If not, I wouldn’t have been there. You always have to give your best, whether you’re with Paco or someone else. But it’s true that it’s not the same to dance for an average guy, with all due respect, than for a guy called Paco de Lucía, who’s a genius. They’ll always appreciate you more depending on who you go with, it’s called reputation.

–And as a guitar enthusiast, what do you think Paco had that made him so different from others?

–Paco had it all: that magic wand that comes with a person, he was out of the ordinary. Creator, the best. As an interpreter. The rhythm. He sang, played and danced with the guitar at the same time. Everything, complete. It is a gift from birth. Then you work hard, of course, but there are others who work hard too and are not as good. Paco was not a guitarist, he was a musician. A genius of nature. For me and for many people, the two geniuses that nature has given are called Paco and Camarón, those who have enriched the cante and the guitar. I say this with great respect for everyone else, but God gives the gift to whomever He wants. It develops over time, but if you don't carry it in your soul, in your spirit, it doesn't come out so nice.

-With CamarónHow was your contact?

-Camarón He was very different, more closed than Paco, he also gave me some very nice compliments. I'll tell you an anecdote. When we were recording his last album, Pony of rage and honey, where I recorded a bulería, we were in the studio and they said: "Let's rest a little, because after so many hours here your head gets stuffy." We went to a bar 500 meters away, it was around three or four in the afternoon, looking for a sandwich and a cold beer. Paco de Lucía, Pepe de Lucía, Tomatito, Camarón, Antonio Humanes, Guadiana, Antonio from Ketama, me… We entered the bar, which had all the doors open but there was no one at the bar, you could see that the man was in the kitchen. Do you know what happened? When the guy saw us with very long hair, he wanted to close the bar. He arrived Camarón and he told him very respectfully and politely to please serve us something, as we just wanted to eat something. It seems unbelievable, the two geniuses of the Planeta walk into a bar in Spain and want to close the bar. Although you should give their place to anyone who behaves. They spoiled the mood a little, but in the end they served us what we asked for.

–That album was the reunion between Paco and CamarónHow did you see the two of you working after so much time?

–There were interests there, right? I think that interests are the first thing that drives a person. It wasn't like when they met when they were 18 and everything was healthier, newer, fresher. Over the years, people change, and what ends up counting is money. Yes, I love you very much, I love you too, but those are words to look good and get out of trouble. But actions speak louder.

«It hurts you, you feel sorry, because the oil is running out. Now there are puddles, and I don't want to offend anyone. It's about the fact that the greatest are no longer here. We must recognize and respect everyone else, but since these two have left, the flamenco has improved a lot thanks to them, but nobody does anything that surprises you"

–But do you think that the friendship between them was not real?

–Maybe it was more authentic in the past, but… Yes, they talked to each other, they recorded, but it was all work. There were no moments of laughter, the professional part took up everything. This world works like that. Of course, listening to them together is amazing, as they had always done. But finally, Camarón He would go to a dressing room and stay there for three or four hours alone. And Paco, well, he waited. I was alone for a month, they stayed for three. In that month Camarón, who has always been a man who liked to get drunk before singing, I saw him do it. He was already 40 years old, and soon after he got sick and that was it. It had to happen sooner or later, because he led a very exaggerated life in that sense. He couldn't sing if he didn't get a little out of his mind. Many artists get used to that, and if they don't have it, they are no longer themselves. They deposit their soul there.

–The fact of having been with Paco and CamarónDid it help boost your career?

–No. The flamencoAs I said, it is in Spain, thrown into the back streets. It is a very marginalized music, it is not appreciated as it should be. I am a gypsy, and I think that also weighs a little in some places. When people get a little silly, I tell them: I did not choose to be a gypsy, God made me a gypsy, I make a living dancing, I have never stolen anything from anyone. And there are gypsies who are businessmen, who have theatres… We are normal people. And in the 50 years that I have been dancing I have not even had a manager. I have sown those 50 years and I have reaped almost nothing. And I have put the batteries in this country in dance, I have put musicality and speed and quality of off-beat to the heels that did not exist before. I chose to be a dancer and I have given everything I could. But for all that there is no reward, except that Paco and Camarón They tell you “you are the best for me”, as Enrique Morente also told me. Although those nice words from important people do not fill your fridge. In Spain, flamenco It's hard, as I've already said, because there is more cronyism than justice.

–Did you have any contact with Paco afterwards?

–Yes, he wanted me to go with him to America, and I told him: “Paco, I can’t go that far, especially if you pay me so little.” But I wasn’t angry. Of course I’ve always wanted to succeed, what artist doesn’t think about being famous and making money? But then you see how things go… Dancing existed before I was born, I’ve done my bit, I’ve done everything from the heart.

–How did you receive the news of his death?

–It made me feel bad, of course. The work has nothing to do with not recognizing the genius that Paco was. It hurts you, you feel sad, because the oil is running out. Now there are puddles, and I don't want to offend anyone. It's about the fact that the greatest are no longer here. We have to recognize and respect everyone else, but since these two have left, the flamenco has improved a lot thanks to them, but nobody does anything that surprises you.

→ See here the installments of the series THE CHOSEN ONES, by Alejandro Luque, about Paco de Lucía's collaborators: