{"id":5509,"date":"2018-04-12T16:55:28","date_gmt":"2018-04-12T16:55:28","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.expoflamenco.com\/archivo\/uncategorized\/el-abuelo-los-creadores-y-los-copiones\/"},"modified":"2019-03-09T11:38:25","modified_gmt":"2019-03-09T10:38:25","slug":"grandpa-creators-and-copyists","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/expoflamenco.com\/archivo\/en\/blog-archivo\/grandpa-creators-and-copyists\/","title":{"rendered":"Grandpa, creators and copyists"},"content":{"rendered":"
\n

-Grandpa, today I\u2019ll ask you to talk about a really thorny subject. You do it always, but we\u2019ll have to thread carefully with this one, because our job at ExpoFlamenco is at stake.<\/b><\/p>\n

-So what do you want to talk about?<\/p>\n

-I want to talk about creators and copyists or parasites. Is that OK?<\/b><\/p>\n

-You\u2019re always getting me into trouble, Manolito. Fine, then, let\u2019s see what comes out of this topic.<\/p>\n

-First, what is a creator in\u00a0cante<\/i>, and what is a copyist, imitator or parasite? Straight talk, grandpa. Don\u2019t sweeten it with\u00a0ojana<\/i>.<\/b><\/p>\n

-A creator in music, and that includes\u00a0cante<\/i>, is a composer. Composers invent music working with the sounds in an imaginative way with the goal of creating their own music, they are able to talk using sounds.<\/p>\n

-OK, but besides what you read in the Wikipedia, what\u2019s your opinion?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

-I think that there are not as many creators in\u00a0cante<\/i>\u00a0as people think, considering there are so many credits:\u00a0seguiriyas del Planeta<\/i>,\u00a0El Fillo<\/i>\u00a0or\u00a0Curro Dulce<\/i>;\u00a0malague\u00f1as de Chac\u00f3n<\/i>\u00a0and\u00a0La Trini<\/i>;\u00a0fandangos de Cayetano el de Cabra<\/i>;\u00a0tarantas del Tonto de Linares<\/i>\u2026 One thing is to compose and quite another is to recreate something that\u2019s already done, an existing pattern. Let me give you an example, Manolito, so you can learn something, because you seem distracted. Was\u00a0Chac\u00f3n<\/a>\u00a0a composer? He was a\u00a0cantaor<\/i>\u00a0with a great talent, which allowed him to create, recreate and improve his own\u00a0cante<\/i>s and whatever he heard in Jerez when he was a child, or in Seville in his early years as a\u00a0cantaor<\/i>. There is an interview of Chac\u00f3n by Galer\u00edn where the journalist points out he wasn\u2019t too impressed with one of Chac\u00f3n\u2019s\u00a0malague\u00f1as<\/i>. The master answered: \u201cYes, but I wrote its lyrics and melody\u201d. Galer\u00edn didn\u2019t object to it and said nothing, and he was the most renowned journalist in those years, the 1920s. So we have to ask ourselves, were Chac\u00f3n\u2019s\u00a0malague\u00f1as<\/i>\u00a0really created by him, or were they re-created from existing compositions?<\/p>\n

-What do you think?<\/b><\/p>\n

-I think that Chac\u00f3n did what everyone did in those days, and also do now: get inspiration from what they listen to. Yet, since he was so talented and was an amazing natural musician, he improved on everything he sang with his prodigious voice: the\u00a0malague\u00f1a del Canario (\u201cViva Madrid\u201d)<\/i>, the\u00a0seguiriya de Frasco el Colorao (\u201cEst\u00e1n tocando a misa\u201d)<\/i>, the\u00a0grana\u00edna de Loriguillo de Co\u00edn (\u201cEngarz\u00e1 en oro y marfil\u201d)<\/i>, which was originally a\u00a0cante abandolao<\/i>\u00a0from M\u00e1laga\u2019s hills, or the\u00a0tientos del Mellizo<\/i>, one of the first references of this genius from Jerez.<\/p>\n

-Yet, he created the\u00a0caracoles<\/i>, right?<\/b><\/p>\n

-No, he made a wonderful version which became the standard model that was the base for everything that followed. In fact, Chac\u00f3n\u2019s\u00a0caracoles<\/i>\u00a0were originally a\u00a0canti\u00f1a de T\u00edo Jos\u00e9 el Grana\u00edno<\/i>\u00a0(that is, a\u00a0canti\u00f1a<\/i>\u00a0that T\u00edo Jos\u00e9 El Grana\u00edno used to sing) which was later performed in Madrid by Francisco Ortega D\u00edaz\u00a0El Cuco<\/i>(one of the brothers of Enrique Ortega\u00a0El Gordo<\/i>, from C\u00e1diz). He was a bullfighter\u2019s assistant, lyricist and\u00a0cantaor<\/i>. Chac\u00f3n later sang that\u00a0canti\u00f1a<\/i>\u00a0when he was no longer in top shape, coming up with an amazing flamenco version. That is, he improved on something that already existed, as he improved almost everything, because he was a genius.<\/p>\n

-Grandpa, why did Fernando el de Triana considered<\/b>\u00a0Tom\u00e1s Pav\u00f3n<\/b><\/a>\u00a0a \u201ccopyist\u201d, if we was another genius?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

-People have only recently been referring to Tom\u00e1s Pav\u00f3n as \u201cgenius\u201d. In his days, he was just one great\u00a0cantaor<\/i>\u00a0admired by Chac\u00f3n and\u00a0Manuel Torres<\/a>, by his sister and by his brother-in-law\u00a0El Pinto<\/a>, and later by\u00a0Mairena<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0Caracol<\/a>. He was also admired by rich aficionados who often hired him. Tom\u00e1s\u2019 case is like that of\u00a0Mojama<\/a>, who was only referred to as a \u201cgenius\u201d after he died.<\/p>\n

-Yet, Tom\u00e1s was a creator, right\u2026? There\u2019s his\u00a0debla \u201cEl Reniego\u201d<\/i>\u2026\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

-I don\u2019t mind when a\u00a0cantaor<\/i>\u00a0is referred to as \u201ccopyist\u201d, because even as this term is seldom used and has a negative connotation, a copyist is someone who faithfully follows the music sheet, at least in classical music. That was what Tom\u00e1s did, achieving unsurpassed quality singing the\u00a0cantes<\/i>\u00a0of Enrique el Mellizo, La Sarneta or Manuel Cagancho.<\/p>\n

-Since you menitioned Cagancho, grandpa, was his amazing\u00a0seguiriya de Triana<\/i>\u00a0influenced by\u00a0El Reniego<\/i>?<\/b><\/p>\n

-Apparently, the music from that\u00a0seguiriya<\/i>\u00a0was originally by Frasco el Colorao and was later refined by Curro Dulce, Antonio Cagancho, Chac\u00f3n and Manuel Torres. Tom\u00e1s did his own version, because he lived in Triana when he was a kid and may have listened to Manuel Cagancho, who died when Tom\u00e1s was 20 years old and was already performing as\u00a0cantaor<\/i>. Yet, this seguiriya was first recorded by\u00a0Manuel Vallejo<\/a>, another genius from Seville.<\/p>\n

-What about that\u00a0debla<\/i>?\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n

-There is no proof that this\u00a0ton\u00e1<\/i>\u00a0was created by Tom\u00e1s. His father, El Pa\u00edti, was a\u00a0cantaor<\/i>\u00a0and was outstanding singing\u00a0a palo seco<\/i>, that is,\u00a0ton\u00e1s<\/i>. He was a blacksmith in the L\u00e9ridas\u2019 forge in Triana, where he was renowned as a crusher, because of his great strength. Tom\u00e1s brother,\u00a0Arturo<\/a>, was the one with the widest repertoire of these\u00a0cantes<\/i>, in his days.\u00a0Marchena<\/a>\u00a0once said that one day he listened to Arturo sing\u00a0martinetes<\/i>\u00a0in Madrid, in a\u00a0mano a mano<\/i>\u00a0with Chac\u00f3n, and in two hours he never repeated any lyrics. Thus, Tom\u00e1s would have been familiar with those\u00a0cantes<\/i>, and the\u00a0debla<\/i>\u00a0was a\u00a0cante<\/i>\u00a0from Triana which had been around for many years, until Tom\u00e1s recorded it, turning it into a jewel with his own style of linking the verses.<\/p>\n

-Summarizing, grandpa, because the rice is almost done, was Tom\u00e1s a creator or a brilliant performer?<\/b><\/p>\n

-He was a brilliant, traditional performer who had so much talent that he applied the last layer of varnish to many\u00a0cantes<\/i>. In my opinion, he was as much a genius as someone who creates a new version of\u00a0sole\u00e1<\/i>\u00a0or ten new\u00a0fandangos<\/i>, like\u00a0Valderrama<\/a>\u00a0did, although I don\u2019t mean to compare them.<\/p>\n

-There\u2019s so much to talk about this, grandpa.<\/b><\/p>\n

-Indeed.<\/p>\n

Translated by P. Young<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n

\n
Illustration on the right by Jos\u00e9 Manuel Capuletti<\/em><\/span><\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

-Grandpa, today I\u2019ll ask you to talk about a […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":6,"featured_media":9908,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"ngg_post_thumbnail":0,"footnotes":""},"categories":[66],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-5509","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-blog-archivo"],"yoast_head":"\nGrandpa, creators and copyists - Archivo Expoflamenco<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/expoflamenco.com\/archivo\/en\/blog-archivo\/grandpa-creators-and-copyists\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Grandpa, creators and copyists - Archivo Expoflamenco\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"-Grandpa, today I\u2019ll ask you to talk about a […]\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/expoflamenco.com\/archivo\/en\/blog-archivo\/grandpa-creators-and-copyists\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Archivo Expoflamenco\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:publisher\" content=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/ExpoFlamenco\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2018-04-12T16:55:28+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:modified_time\" content=\"2019-03-09T10:38:25+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"https:\/\/expoflamenco.com\/archivo\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/TomasDobleS800.jpg\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:width\" content=\"1300\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:height\" content=\"800\" \/>\n\t<meta property=\"og:image:type\" content=\"image\/jpeg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Manuel Boh\u00f3rquez\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:creator\" content=\"@expoflamenco1\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:site\" content=\"@expoflamenco1\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:label1\" content=\"Written by\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data1\" content=\"Manuel Boh\u00f3rquez\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:label2\" content=\"Est. reading time\" \/>\n\t<meta name=\"twitter:data2\" content=\"6 minutes\" \/>\n<script type=\"application\/ld+json\" class=\"yoast-schema-graph\">{\"@context\":\"https:\\\/\\\/schema.org\",\"@graph\":[{\"@type\":\"Article\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/expoflamenco.com\\\/archivo\\\/en\\\/blog-archivo\\\/grandpa-creators-and-copyists\\\/#article\",\"isPartOf\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/expoflamenco.com\\\/archivo\\\/en\\\/blog-archivo\\\/grandpa-creators-and-copyists\\\/\"},\"author\":{\"name\":\"Manuel Boh\u00f3rquez\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/expoflamenco.com\\\/archivo\\\/#\\\/schema\\\/person\\\/608d65b2c159f7b5b632f1365c15030f\"},\"headline\":\"Grandpa, creators and copyists\",\"datePublished\":\"2018-04-12T16:55:28+00:00\",\"dateModified\":\"2019-03-09T10:38:25+00:00\",\"mainEntityOfPage\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/expoflamenco.com\\\/archivo\\\/en\\\/blog-archivo\\\/grandpa-creators-and-copyists\\\/\"},\"wordCount\":1104,\"commentCount\":0,\"publisher\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/expoflamenco.com\\\/archivo\\\/#organization\"},\"image\":{\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/expoflamenco.com\\\/archivo\\\/en\\\/blog-archivo\\\/grandpa-creators-and-copyists\\\/#primaryimage\"},\"thumbnailUrl\":\"https:\\\/\\\/expoflamenco.com\\\/archivo\\\/wp-content\\\/uploads\\\/2018\\\/04\\\/TomasDobleS800.jpg\",\"articleSection\":[\"Blog El Bordonazo\"],\"inLanguage\":\"en-US\",\"potentialAction\":[{\"@type\":\"CommentAction\",\"name\":\"Comment\",\"target\":[\"https:\\\/\\\/expoflamenco.com\\\/archivo\\\/en\\\/blog-archivo\\\/grandpa-creators-and-copyists\\\/#respond\"]}]},{\"@type\":\"WebPage\",\"@id\":\"https:\\\/\\\/expoflamenco.com\\\/archivo\\\/en\\\/blog-archivo\\\/grandpa-creators-and-copyists\\\/\",\"url\":\"https:\\\/\\\/expoflamenco.com\\\/archivo\\\/en\\\/blog-archivo\\\/grandpa-creators-and-copyists\\\/\",\"name\":\"Grandpa, creators and copyists - 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