{"id":15225,"date":"2019-08-20T19:52:12","date_gmt":"2019-08-20T17:52:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.expoflamenco.com\/archivo\/?p=15225"},"modified":"2019-09-10T20:15:06","modified_gmt":"2019-09-10T18:15:06","slug":"carmen-ledesma-what-people-around-the-world-like-most-about-flamenco-is-baile-not-so-much-cante-or-guitar","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/expoflamenco.com\/archivo\/en\/interviews\/carmen-ledesma-what-people-around-the-world-like-most-about-flamenco-is-baile-not-so-much-cante-or-guitar\/","title":{"rendered":"Carmen Ledesma: \u00abWhat people around the world like most about flamenco is baile, not so much cante or guitar\u00bb"},"content":{"rendered":"

She says that she\u2019s a starlet, a little link in flamenco, although she\u2019s shy about admitting it. That\u2019s why on August 22nd<\/sup> she\u2019ll be honored<\/a>\u00a0at the\u00a0Veranillos del Alamillo<\/a> series in Seville. She also says that her whole life has been based on dancing for cante<\/em>, something she knows well, and that deep inside she also understands young people, because she knows how hard is to succeed and stand out, doing all the things everyone must do to make a living. Hers is an authorized voice to speak about armwork, jondura<\/em>, technique and the teaching of baile, and also <\/em>to understand what is the traditional school of Seville. Y Sevilla<\/em>, like the poem by Manuel Machado goes.<\/p>\n

Carmen Ledesma (born in Seville in 1956) is a flamenco dancer. Pure flamenco. Slow, how it should be. A comp\u00e1s<\/em>. Without gimmicks. The kind of flamenco that scratches the sides of the soul. That\u2019s why she\u2019s in such high demand all around the world to teach people how to dance. Her words also overflow with flamenco, we can confirm this. \u201cThere are many truths in my words\u201d, she suggests in a whisper as she deals with a buttered toast at Bar Plata, across Bas\u00edlica de la Macarena<\/em>. No other than Pepe Pinto worked here as a waiter. It\u2019s a good place to talk about flamenco, then. And to take pictures of this very personification of flamenco.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u2013 The Veranillos Flamencos del Alamillo<\/em> will give you an emotional tribute. How do you feel about it?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 The truth is that I\u2019m not used to be honored for my artistic career. It\u2019s been a surprise and it has made me very happy, to be sincere. It\u2019s good to be honored in my lifetime, because in the old days people were only honored after they died.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Do you resent this in any way? I mean, the fact that you seldom have been honored. <\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Perhaps a few years ago I asked myself this kind of question. But not anymore, because I know who I am and where I am.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Who are you and where are you, do\u00f1a<\/em> Carmen? Apologies, but I could not let this one pass.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 I\u2019m a very normal person. A flamenco worker. I\u2019m not a star like Antonio Canales, Manuela Carrasco, Farruquito\u2026 Perhaps many people like the work I do. The truth is that I have many followers and many friends. But I\u2019ve never been a star. I\u2019m nothing more than a starlet.<\/p>\n

\u2013 How come you never became a leading star? <\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 I\u2019ve been very lucky in my career, I can tell you this right off the bat. With so many bailaoras<\/em> in Seville, I\u2019ve always been hired for the biggest productions, for shows full of flamenco. My career has focused in my way of dancing for cante<\/em>. I know I\u2019m a little link in flamenco, although I don\u2019t like to say this out loud. I\u2019ve danced for Jos\u00e9 Menese, Camar\u00f3n, Lebrijano, Naranjito, Panseco, Nano de Jerez, Jos\u00e9 de la Tomasa, Terremoto (grandson and son)\u2026 I\u2019ve been a dancer of cantaores<\/em>, and few bailaoras<\/em> can claim that. All the great cantaores<\/em> have asked me to dance for them<\/p>\n

\u2013 In few words, how would you define yourself as bailaora<\/em>?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 I am the culture of my country. The culture of my land, Andalusia. A bailaora <\/em>from Andalusia, from the Seville school. I am flamenca<\/em>, because my school is a traditional school. I define myself as Andalusian and bailaora<\/em>.<\/p>\n

\u00abPeople can learn how to dance flamenco. But that flamenco of minorities, flamenco of art and improvisation, the kind done by Matilde Coral, Trini Espa\u00f1a, Farruco or Rafael el Negro, is very difficult to maintain\u00bb<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\u2013 What\u2019s going on with baile <\/em>nowadays?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 A lot is going on. Perhaps people want to become important and as a result have watered down many things. Or perhaps they have not experienced life and flamenco as I have. They mix traditional flamenco with contemporary art. There has been a lot of mixing, a lot of youthful experimentation. I was young once, too, I understand it. But that\u2019s not the kind of flamenco I like. The flamenco I stand for is something else. It\u2019s not just about dancing por<\/em> sole\u00e1<\/em>. It a whole culture. A people\u2019s identity.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Is flamenco in endangered?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Flamenco will never be endangered. Particularly the music, the art; not so much cante<\/em>, baile<\/em> or guitar. It\u2019s a very strong, millennial culture. It\u2019s made up of so many other cultures mixed together that it\u2019s impossible that it will ever vanish. People like flamenco, true flamenco. Not for nothing it was declared Intangible Cultural Heritage by UNESCO. Flamenco, bulls, food\u2026 That what\u2019s comes to mind when people al over the world think of Spain.<\/p>\n

\u2013 All this must be respected, right? <\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Obviously. It\u2019s not that the young artists don\u2019t respect it, is that they want to experiment. I\u2019ve come to terms with this. The want to contribute something, make flamenco greater. They won\u2019t be able to modernize flamenco. Just look at the new generation of young cantaores<\/em>, there is no mixing. How well they sing por seguiriyas<\/em>! The grandson of Jos\u00e9 de la Tomasa, the other kids\u2026 Those kids haven\u2019t stopped since they started. And others who [change the traditional way of singing and] scream too much have been left behind. So there\u2019s something [in traditional flamenco] that people like.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Do you mean to say that the public prefer traditional flamenco instead of flamenco-light?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 These days, the whole planet is captivated by flamenco. I travel all over the world. When I get a call, it\u2019s because they like traditional flamenco, because I don\u2019t do foolish things.<\/p>\n

\u2013 What about flamenco evolution? <\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 When I started performing, there was much more classical dance than flamenco. The only tablao <\/em>was Los Gallos. I worked at the Cristina Hotel. Matilde Coral and Trini Espa\u00f1a already performed. There was some flamenco, but there was a lot of classical dance. Through the years, I\u2019ve seen a brutal evolution of technique. It\u2019s true that this opened flamenco to the world. People can learn how to dance flamenco. But that flamenco of minorities, flamenco of art and improvisation, is very difficult to maintain. Baile has evolved from what was done by Matilde, Trini, Farruco or Rafael el Negro. The artists of my age can\u2019t do seven twirls in a row, but young dancers can twirl for half an hour, because they\u2019ve learned the technique and they have added it to flamenco. Yet, real, pure flamenco, is very hard to do. And it\u2019s what people like the most.<\/p>\n

\u00abIn japan they can tell ca\u00f1as from polos, according to the \u201cays\u201d. <\/em>There are very good flamenco aficionados outside Spain\u00bb<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\u2013 You are a flamenco dance teacher who have taught all over the world. <\/strong>Do you think it\u2019s possible learning how to dance like Manuela or Farruquito in a dance academy?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Well, regarding Farruquito, it seems that everyone is trying out the moves of his grandfather Antonio, and then people say \u201cFarruco used to dance like that\u201d. Some people may be able to imitate him quite well, but imitations are never as good as the original. Personality is very important. To dance, bailaores<\/em> need to be themselves. Everything can be learned, and the more people learn the better. Yet, if bailaores<\/em> don\u2019t add their personalities to their performances, they\u2019ll never be great artists, no matter how good their technique. That\u2019s what young artists are always seeking. In fact, they are often unaware of what they know and how much they can contribute.<\/p>\n

\u2013 But you like teaching, right? The passion that people from all corners of the world, from all backgrounds, feels wanting to learn baile flamenco<\/em>. Recently, we witnessed all that in the academy of La Truco, in Parla, Madrid, with the young Turroneras<\/em> who dance like seasoned, old bailaoras<\/em>.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 They\u2019re so graceful. Teachers have lots of influence. La Truco and her son Cristian live and breathe flamenco, that\u2019s what they teach. Students learn what they\u2019re taught, that\u2019s true everywhere, even here in Seville. We can\u2019t forget that when we teach, we are like parents for these students. It\u2019s not just about learning how to dance. There is a deeper educational role. The teachers must be intelligent enough to understand the students and shape them. Some are good for dancing, others are good to earn money and others are good to teach sevillanas<\/em>. My students and the students of La Truco know exactly who we are and what are we going to teach them. Before anything, I must reach their hearts. I won\u2019t teach them to dance por sole\u00e1<\/em>. I\u2019ll teach them what they have to do to learn how to dance por sole\u00e1<\/em>.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"Bailaora

Bailaora Carmen Ledesma, with the Seville\u2019s Bas\u00edlica de la Macarena in the background. Foto: Quico P\u00e9rez-Ventana<\/p><\/div>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u2013 In a few weeks you will travel to Canada, precisely where our flamenco website was born. And then you\u2019ll go to hundreds of different cities around the globe. Is Antonio Chac\u00f3n, for example, known overseas?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 You have no idea. In japan I\u2019ve seen collections of flamenco slate records that I\u2019ve never seen in Spain. They can tell ca\u00f1as<\/em> from polos<\/em>, according to the \u201cays<\/em>\u201d. There are very good flamenco aficionados outside Spain. Even I myself, having grown up listening to flamenco, sometimes can\u2019t tell one cante<\/em> from the other. And I know a lot about cante<\/em>.<\/p>\n

\u2013 The other day we interviewed Cristina Heeren and\u2026 <\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Oh, I\u2019ve worked with her for eleven years. That lady has taken a very important step in flamenco. Setting up her academy here in Seville has been great, because she is a very intelligent woman who loves flamenco and art. She surrounded herself with the best artists to accomplish her great work in behalf of flamenco.<\/p>\n

\u00abBaile has evolved into technique and speed. Bailaoras seem to be constantly looking at the mirror, lost on thought\u00bb<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\u2013 I was saying that Cristina Heeren was talking the other day in an interview for our website about the loss of femininity in baile flamenco<\/em>. Do you agree?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Yes, yes, yes. Girls dance like boys and boys dance like girls. Carmen Amaya wore trousers, but she was always feminine. Yet, today\u2019s girls want to make the gestures and motions of men. When dancing so fast, the arms cannot move at the same speed as the feet, and the dancer ends up looking like a puppet. Fifteen or twenty years ago, dancing with bata de cola<\/em> was something elegant, feminine. The bata <\/em>and the mant\u00f3n<\/em> were part of the woman\u2019s body, part of her skin. Now they just toss the mant\u00f3n<\/em> left and right\u2026 It\u2019s like a circus. I cannot conceive handling the mant\u00f3n<\/em> at such speed. You have to understand that my favourite bailaora<\/em> was Pastora Imperio. I was born in Seville. And I liked Pilar L\u00f3pez even as she was born in the other side of Spain. She was elegant. And Matilde, so beautiful. And Milagros Meng\u00edbar, who elevated the bata<\/em>. None of them danced at the speed that today\u2019s bailaoras<\/em> dance. And of course, Cristina Heeren likes elegance, art. But even the students of her academy won\u2019t achieve such elegance, because the trend is to dance fast. They focus too much on footwork. And the boys want to be women, they even wear batas <\/em>and dance with mantones<\/em>. Even if a man is feminine, it doesn\u2019t look the same as if he were a woman. In the end, men have the strength of men, and they won\u2019t be able to move the bata<\/em> like I do.<\/p>\n

\u2013 We get back to the evolution of baile<\/em>. It looks like you don\u2019t like how things are going. <\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Baile has evolved into that: technique. There is a way of dancing nowadays that is like looking at the mirror. All their strength, the look in their eyes, becomes lost in thought. I often make a point about this with my students. It\u2019s OK to glance at the mirror to learn a movement, because that makes it much easier, but I quickly turn them facing the wall. Because if the look of a dancer is dead, they are worthless, no matter how well they dance from the neck down. A dancer can have a very fast footwork, but if they dance like a robot and I\u2019m watching them from my seat, I\u2019ll just get angry. Yet, if I see nice movements, beautiful gestures overflowing with art, I feel like jumping with joy twenty times over.<\/p>\n

\u2013 What\u2019s the difference between the Seville school and the other schools of baile<\/em>? <\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Seville originally had a stronger tradition in classical dance than in flamenco dance, so there was still that culture, that mastery of classical dance. The arms, the gestures of the head and the neck, the posture of the body. That\u2019s something essential in classic Spanish Dance. I trained as a classic dancer, wearing slippers and heels. Then, when I met Pepe R\u00edos and Enrique el Cojo, my life changed. My uncle Coralillo was a bailaor<\/em>. He worked at Los Gallos and he used to take me there to watch flamenco. Trini Espa\u00f1a danced there, and I was bewitched by her. I told myself that if I ever became a bailaora<\/em>, I wanted to be like her. That was the kind of flamenco I liked, and it\u2019s the kind of flamenco that has taken me where I am now.<\/p>\n

\u2013 So you\u2019ve had your teachers. <\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Yes, I\u2019m not like Angelita Vargas, who never attended dance lessons. She created her own bailes<\/em>. I\u2019ve had my teachers. I\u2019ve studied classic Spanish dance. I\u2019ve done the Jota de la Dolores<\/em> and verdiales<\/em>\u2026 That\u2019s how I can tell when bailaores<\/em> do classical dance, because I\u2019ve done it, too.<\/p>\n

\u00abPeople come to Spain seeking baile flamenco, not cante or guitar. <\/em>You can be sure of that, one hundred percent\u00bb<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

\u2013 As a cante aficionada<\/em>, do you have anything to say about those new media-savvy artists? <\/strong>Rest assured that whatever you say won\u2019t be used as the title of this interview.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Look. I know that this girl doesn\u2019t sing flamenco and she\u2019ll never will, but every time she opens her mouth and sings anything flamenco-ish, seventy thousand people will listen. That goes to show what\u2019s happening these days with those in the business of flamenco. If I were an entrepreneur and listened to her singing, which sounds like as if she had a little whistle in her throat, God have mercy\u2026 So, why do they want to feature her as a flamenco singer? I don\u2019t think this is fair. She is a product. Girls want to dress like her, have their nails like her, be like her. The creators of that product are people who are hiding in the back. If someone says that she sings like Ni\u00f1a de los Peines, does she have the nerve to believe it? Me, being a mother, if I knew her personally, I\u2019d tell her two or three things. Even if she likes flamenco, if someone asks her to sing before a good cantaora<\/em>, she should remain seated instead of getting up and sing. Being an artist is that, too: remaining seated instead of climbing on a stage to make a fool of themselves. Because she can\u2019t compete singing in a tablao<\/em> with someone like La Fabi. \u201cDo you want to sing?\u201d, \u201cOh, no, I\u2019m sorry, I\u2019m not feeling well today\u201d. Lady! Don\u2019t get up from your seat no matter how much people insist! When people get famous being so young, they must have their feet firmly on the ground, otherwise they need someone to pulls their ears once in a while. No, you stay seated, because that\u2019s not your thing.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Do you think that those seventy thousand young people who listen to her will ever listen to Lela Soto or Mar\u00eda Terremoto?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Many people love Lela and Mar\u00eda\u2019s flamenco. What happens is that cante<\/em> is very complicated overseas. People don\u2019t understand the lyrics. Miguel Poveda, who is a big star, has to sing well-known, non-flamenco tunes when he performs in America. Cante is not well understood outside of Spain. What the whole world likes is flamenco baile<\/em>, not so much cante<\/em> or flamenco guitar. People come to Spain seeking baile flamenco<\/em>, not cante or guitar. You can be sure of that, one hundred percent.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Is it time to bring the masters back? <\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 It should be done, there\u2019s a lot of confusion. Most people who travel overseas to teach flamenco are young people who teach their own style of baile<\/em>, with their own fusions. Every flamenco dancer knows who is Manuela Carrasco, who is Antonio Canales, who is Farruquito. Who is teaching flamenco around the world? If it were Manuela or Antonio who teach abroad, we could feel assured that authentic flamenco would be taught.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Is there male chauvinism in flamenco?<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 I\u2019ve never experienced it. In a few days I\u2019ll be 63 years old, but I\u2019ve also been twenty years old. I\u2019ve always been a strong woman. I\u2019ve always had my standards as a woman.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Who would you like to see performing at the next Bienal? It\u2019s so nice to see artists praising each other\u2026<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 I love my people. I adore Adela Campallo. I love Pastorita when she evokes her mother\u2019s arms and her father\u2019s feet. Olga Pericet dances amazingly, even as she does modern things. Marquito Flores\u2026 There are a lot of artists I like, because I\u2019m not a fool, OK? I like art. When I see art, I understand them. But that doesn\u2019t mean it\u2019s all flamenco. I love Roc\u00edo Molina, because I know she\u2019s a great professional. However, what I cannot digest is that to make a show as a bailaora<\/em> or as a dancer, both things at the same time, she feels the need to open the zipper of a bata de cola<\/em> and get all naked. Yet, I respect everyone who performs on a stage, because I know how hard it is, all the studying it takes.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Any petition? <\/strong>Speak up, because you are the protagonist of this tribute.<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 This land must support flamenco, because flamenco was born here. It\u2019s very hard to get any financial help for flamenco things. But if the proposal is youthful and modern, it\u2019s not a problem, they\u2019ll give you everything. Kids must find a way to make a living, I get that. No one dances better than Israel Galv\u00e1n. He\u2019s a great professional, he has proven himself. Then he went to the Lope de Vega theater and performed like a bullfighter: sole\u00e1, alegr\u00eda seguiriya<\/em>\u2026 and then he stopped dancing flamenco just because he felt like it. The institutions seek other things. If flamenco is not supported in our land, people would have to make a living like Paquera de Jerez did. That\u2019s all I have to say. Goodbye!<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"Carmen

Carmen Ledesma, at Bar Plata in Seville\u2019s Macarena district. Pepe Pinto server coffee in this very same counter. Photo: Quico P\u00e9rez-Ventana<\/p><\/div>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

The celebrated bailaora, a faithful representative of the Seville school, will be honored at Veranillos del Alamillo in recognition to her artistic career. 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