{"id":12841,"date":"2019-06-05T21:27:34","date_gmt":"2019-06-05T19:27:34","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.expoflamenco.com\/archivo\/?p=12841"},"modified":"2019-12-14T22:30:16","modified_gmt":"2019-12-14T21:30:16","slug":"cristina-heeren-if-there-are-degrees-for-gastronomy-or-hairstyling-there-should-be-degrees-for-flamenco-too","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/expoflamenco.com\/archivo\/en\/interviews\/cristina-heeren-if-there-are-degrees-for-gastronomy-or-hairstyling-there-should-be-degrees-for-flamenco-too\/","title":{"rendered":"Cristina Heeren: \u00abIf there are degrees for gastronomy or hairstyling, there should be degrees for flamenco, too\u00bb"},"content":{"rendered":"

A website, this one, created in Vancouver, Canada, to promote flamenco in the world. An explicit backing of Andalusian art with foreign financing. This should sound familiar, do\u00f1a<\/em> Cristina. She nods. The institution that bears her name, Fundaci\u00f3n Cristina Heeren de Arte Flamenco<\/em><\/a>, has been doing just that for a quarter of a century. More than six thousand people have studied in this prestigious international school of flamenco, whose teachers have included maestros<\/em> of the stature of Naranjito de Triana, Milagros Meng\u00edbar, Jos\u00e9 de la Tomasa, Esperanza Fern\u00e1ndez, Arc\u00e1ngel, Javier Bar\u00f3n, Calixto S\u00e1nchez, Carmen Ledesma, Paco Cort\u00e9s and Rafael Campallo, among others. First opening in Seville\u2019s Santa Cruz district and later relocating to the Heliopolis neighborhood, it\u2019s now rooted in Triana, in an imposing 16,000 sq. ft. building which includes a charming stage with seating for 140 people, the Teatro Flamenco Triana<\/a>: a new bright spot in Seville\u2019s cultural calendar. Such is the mission of Cristina Heeren<\/strong><\/a>, North American Hispanist and patron of the arts, awarded the Orden Civil de Alfonso X<\/em> and the Medalla de Sevilla<\/em>. All of this without speaking with an Andalusian accent. \u00abI don\u2019t see a need to have an unnatural accent\u00bb, she says.\u00a0 A few days ago, at the Teatro Central in Seville\u2019s Isla de la Cartuja<\/em>, the ExpoFlamenco staff attended the winners\u2019 gala of the contest Talento Flamenco<\/em><\/a>, promoted by the Cristina Heeren Foundation. The artistic level was extremely high. Our title for that show\u2019s review <\/a>said it all: \u201cEl flamenco no se acaba, al menos esta noche<\/em>\u201d (\u201cFlamenco is not over, at least tonight<\/em>\u201d). As long as a new generation \u2014 such as the one coming daily to 76 Pureza Street \u2014 has that much knowledge and passion, it\u2019s impossible for flamenco to ever die out. Do\u00f1a<\/em> Cristina nods in agreement.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u2013 You have been a patron of flamenco for over 20 years. Are you comfortable being defined in this way, as a patron of flamenco? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 I would introduce myself as the president of a foundation that promotes flamenco and the teaching of all aspects of flamenco. And also as a flamenco aficionada<\/em>.<\/p>\n

\u2013 We have read that you first discovered flamenco in 1955, attending a performance of Antonio el Bailar\u00edn. Is it true that flamenco grabs us and never let go? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 Yes, it is probably true. Because I spent several years away from flamenco, when I lived in Paris working as film editor. Sometimes at night I wondered \u201cwell, what am I doing here?\u201d. Eventually, it got all sorted out.<\/p>\n

\u2013 When did you first thought that your main contribution to flamenco could be the creation of a school of flamenco baile<\/em>, cante<\/em> and toque<\/em>\u2026? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 Well, it wasn\u2019t a plan. It was an idea that came up during a recording of Jos\u00e9 de la Tomasa. We were in France with Jos\u00e9 Luis Postigo and Pedro Bac\u00e1n. Postigo said that it was a pity that there wasn\u2019t any flamenco school whose teachers were renowned artists, because that would be an inspiration for the students. Then I thought, \u201cwell, it should not be that complicated to make this happen\u201d. And when an idea gets into my head, I get to work on it\u2026 That\u2019s what happened. It was in 1993. We had to create a foundation, get a board of trustees\u2026 We opened in 1996.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Wasn\u2019t there anything like it? Is there anything like it? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 I don\u2019t think so. The important thing is to teach the three things at the same time. That reflects the future professional life of the students. They\u2019ll be part of a team. I don\u2019t think there\u2019s anything like it. But I don\u2019t think about these things. I just do my job. Our director, Pepa S\u00e1nchez, a great expert, has created an unbeatable academic program. My role is to assure it\u2019s accomplished.<\/p>\n

\u2013 What do you feel the most proud of, in these twenty three years leading the Foundation?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 I\u2019m most proud of the results I see in the students here. They are well-versed, they acquire well-rounded knowledge. Then they go on winning important flamenco prizes such as the L\u00e1mpara Minera<\/em>, joining important companies, going on great solo tours\u2026 That is really what encourages me to keep going.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u00abHere there is a strong opposition to the private sector. We can see this in the Amancio Ortega controversy with the most ridicule arguments I\u2019ve heard in my whole life\u00bb<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u2013 Are there people who resent the fact that a foreigner comes here to set up the best flamenco school in Andalusia?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 I guess so, but I\u2019m unaware of anyone in particular who feels that way. It\u2019s a matter of doing a good job, everything else is not important. In any event, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s odd that a foreigner understands the worth of flamenco. This has always happened. Regarding the Spanish, the Andalusians, I think that not taking yourself too seriously is part of your charm. It\u2019s a nice thing, too.\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n

\u2013 Don\u2019t we take ourselves seriously? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 You don\u2019t take seriously the things you have.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Can you imagine a Spaniard doing something like this in the United States? Creating a foundation to preserve jazz or blues?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 No, I can\u2019t imagine it. Particularly someone from here, where there isn\u2019t a tradition of contributing to art, to museums, to hospitals. Here there is a strong opposition to the private sector. We can see this in the Amancio Ortega controversy with the most ridicule arguments I\u2019ve heard in my whole life. In the U.S., this man\u2019s philanthropy is virtually demanded from people who earn a lot of money. Wealthy people are supposed to contribute to society. Yet, here, unless it\u2019s done by the government, it\u2019s deemed worthless.<\/p>\n

\u2013 How long did it take for you to tell flamenco palos<\/em> apart? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 It didn\u2019t take long, because I have a good ear. What it\u2019s harder for me to tell apart are the variations added by the old flamenco artists. I\u2019d like to learn about this in Pepa\u2019s classes. But it\u2019s not that complicated, either.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Most Andalusians can\u2019t tell a sole\u00e1<\/em> from a seguiriya<\/em>. <\/strong>
\n\u2013 Of course, it depends. If someone is going to make a living off flamenco, it\u2019s necessary to learn all that. If a cantaor<\/em> goes to perform in a pe\u00f1a<\/em> and is asked to sing a sole\u00e1 de La Serneta<\/em>, he can\u2019t say he doesn\u2019t know about it.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Would you be able to recognize a sole\u00e1 de La Serneta<\/em>?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 Perhaps. Is not that hard.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u00abBaile is what has suffered the most in this flamenco evolution, <\/em>the difference between female and male baile\u00bb<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u2013When did you learn to tell flamenco jondo<\/em> from ojana<\/em>? You know those expressions, right?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 Yes, I could tell it right away, from day one. Otherwise, I would not be doing this job. Besides, I was surrounded by very traditional artists, as I wanted to, such as Calixto S\u00e1nchez, Jos\u00e9 de la Tomasa, Milagros Meng\u00edbar\u2026 That\u2019s the cornerstone I wanted to provide. After the students leave, they can do whatever they want.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Is there a lot of ojana<\/em> out there?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 Yes. Sometimes it helps, because it\u2019s easier listening to ojana<\/em> than listening to authentic flamenco. The truth is that there is a lot of flamenco-ish music out there, and it doesn\u2019t bother me as long as people don\u2019t call it \u201cflamenco\u201d. It\u2019s all a matter of semantics, in my opinion.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"Cristina

Cristina Heeren, in a courtyard at the headquarters of her Foundation. Photo: Quico P\u00e9rez-Ventana<\/p><\/div>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u2013 Is flamenco taken care of in Andalusia, like it deserves?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 No, I don\u2019t think so. There is a great resistance by the Administration, in general. I\u2019m struggling, for example, to certify our school. Since in Spain degrees are so important, we want to award our students an official degree. And, I don\u2019t know why, I\u2019ve been unable to achieve this. They don\u2019t want to do things because they are new. Yet, at the beginning everything is new. I remember that a P.E. teacher used to be just a lady lifting up her arms. Now it\u2019s a career. We have to begin somewhere, right?<\/p>\n

\u2013 You mean a professional degree? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 Yes, that\u2019s what I am pursuing. Some things can be achieved in Universities, but they\u2019re more elitist. The people who come into the world of flamenco haven\u2019t always finished primary school. Professional training is the way. If there are degrees for gastronomy or hairstyling, there should also be degrees for flamenco, which was created here.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Do you think that flamenco is an art for the minority? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 Yes, certainly. Flamenco includes some harmonies that are uncommon in Western music. It\u2019s hard to understand flamenco without studying it. Indeed, when I take a group to perform in the United States, I start with a short lecture about the history of flamenco, so people know what they will watch. This is a necessary aid for the North American public, who needs to understand things, not just to feel them.<\/p>\n

\u2013 You said earlier that, above all, you were a flamenco aficionada<\/em>. Indeed, we have seen you attending shows at the Bienal<\/em> and in other manifestations of Andalusian culture. What is your opinion about the direction where flamenco art is going nowadays?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 I don\u2019t think there is one single direction. There is a mixture of directions, some of them correct, others not so much. The Bienal<\/em> has always been characterized by quantity instead of quality. I don\u2019t know why it has to be so long and why it has to include things that have nothing to do with flamenco. I go back to semantics. If it\u2019s not flamenco, then it\u2019s not flamenco. Whatever. There are other musical genres. They exist. Some are wonderful. And I believe that baile<\/em> perhaps has gone astray, the difference between female and male baile<\/em>. Baile<\/em> is what has suffered the most in this evolution.<\/p>\n

\u2013 If, like someone said, man is his worst enemy, is flamenco its worst enemy? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 No, because that requires an intellectual exercise that doesn\u2019t exist within flamenco.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u00abIt\u2019s easier for the government to give money to the unemployed, it looks nicer, instead of creating meaningful employment by promoting Andalusian culture\u00bb<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u2013 Do you feel that flamencos <\/em>value all the work you\u2019ve done in the last 25 years?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 Yes, I believe so, specially people close to me, I\u2019m very thankful. I know it\u2019s them who support me, we have the same vision, they encourage me. Yet, what I really seek is the success of the students. That\u2019s what I care about.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Any resentment?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 The lack of interest that I sense. This is serious, because it\u2019s a matter of creating job opportunities. In the end, there is no interest. For the Junta de Andaluc\u00eda<\/em> is much easier to say \u201coh, what a pity, the unemployment\u201d and hand out money to those unemployed. It looks nicer talking like that, instead of creating meaningful employment by promoting Andalusian culture<\/p>\n

\u2013 They like to look nice, but then don\u2019t commit, right? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 Exactly.<\/p>\n

\u2013Is there a \u2018Cristina Heeren mold\u2019 for the artists who learn flamenco in your classrooms?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 Yes, without a doubt. Artists are different among themselves \u2014 take El Choro and Alberto Selles, for example \u2014 but they reflect a creative mold within a traditional frame. I think that\u2019s apparent. And their knowledge. They know what they are doing.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Is there such thing as duende<\/em> in flamenco? Have you seen it?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 Yes, like in any other art. In flamenco we call it duende<\/em>, but in fact is just art, inspiration. It must exist, otherwise we\u2019re not talking about art.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Can duende<\/em> be learned in a classroom? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 No. Duende<\/em> is something people are born with. The most you learn, the greatest the freedom to express it.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u00abI don\u2019t think that flamenco is held in higher esteem in other countries. They love it when flamenco is performed there, but they don\u2019t give flamenco a special place\u00bb<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u2013 What remains to be done regarding flamenco education? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 A seal. A certification. And teaching about flamenco in the school\u2019s classrooms. There has been a lot of talk about this for years, but politicians talk about many things and then the ideas get sidetracked. We\u2019ll also try to exert some influence in this regard.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Do you perceive any differences among your students, regarding if they are local or foreign?<\/strong>
\n\u2013 It\u2019s hard to tell. Perhaps the foreign students, having made the extra effort of relocating to Seville besides paying for the course, may be a little more formal when it comes to studying. Yet, we shouldn\u2019t generalize.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Some renowned artists say that, outside Spain, flamenco is more highly regarded. More public goes to the theaters, it has more respect.<\/strong>
\n\u2013 I don\u2019t know, I don\u2019t think so. It\u2019s easy to say these things, but we cannot measure this according to the number of applauses they get in foreign countries. I don\u2019t think that flamenco is held in higher esteem in other countries. They love it when flamenco is performed there, but they don\u2019t give flamenco a special place. Flamenco seduces, though, without a doubt.<\/p>\n

\u2013 After living in Seville for 25 years leading this foundation, would you like to confess what bothers you the most about the people of Seville? .<\/strong>
\n\u2013 Should I say it? Hahaha. Their frivolity. I think Seville is the world capital of frivolity. Yet, it\u2019s also the geographical center of Andalusia. So, we have no other choice than being here. We must be in Seville striving for Seville.<\/p>\n

\u2013 Do you mean not taking seriously the important things? <\/strong>The posing? <\/strong>
\n\u2013 Yes, but not only that. The priorities. It seems as if having fun is the only important thing and everything else is secondary. I\u2019m sorry to say this, OK?<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Before visiting the fabulous facilities at the central headquarters of the Foundation at Pureza Street, in the heart of Triana, Silvia Calado and Alexandra Hoffer, in charge of communication and production in this institute, join our conversation. We talk about the great artists that have studied here: El Choro, Argentina, Manuel Lombo, Roc\u00edo M\u00e1rquez, Luisa Palicio\u2026 \u00abDid you know that Ni\u00f1o de Elche also studied here?\u00bb, they tell me. \u00abYes, I had heard about it\u00bb, I reply. \u00abHe himself disowns having studied here. You saw the mess he did at the Lope de Vega theater, seriously insulting flamenco art\u00bb. Cristina Heeren intervenes: \u00abIt\u2019s the fault of whoever included someone like him in the program of the Bienal de Sevilla<\/em>\u00bb. Ah, too bad I turned my recorder off. \u00abYou can write it down, not a problem\u00bb.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\"Cristina

Cristina Heeren welcomes Quico P\u00e9rez-Ventana, editor of ExpoFlamenco, in a beautiful courtyard of her Foundation in Triana. Photo: Silvia Calado<\/p><\/div>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Flamenco and \u2018ojana\u2019. Seriousness and frivolity. Amancio Ortega and the \u2018Junta\u2019. Triana and the people of Seville. 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Seriousness and frivolity. Amancio Ortega and the \u2018Junta\u2019. Triana and the people of Seville. 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